Edward: What does their own thing tend to be?

 

Maurice: Their own ‘new’ thing often tends to be doing it the old way again. But there are people that are trying to innovate and do very interesting things. I guess in short what I’m trying to say is that there are still plenty of opportunities because the market is so large but you really have to spend a lot of time sifting through the opportunities, or educating, or learning just when to say no really quickly to be efficient in terms of what we do.

 

Just give me an example for us, we field inquiries from… I mean recently we were contacted by a company I personally had not heard of but I did a quick google and they’re worth nine billion dollars and you have that to individuals saying: “Hey how much do I need to pay you guys to shout me out?” So really everything in between, everyday. So like I say, it’s still the Wild West in a way and you can land really really big projects and you can do small ones and I think for us what’s been important is to really figure out who we are and what kind of projects we want to be involved with and what kind of clients we want to be involved with and that has sort of set us on the path that best represents who we want to be.

 

Edward: Speaking of your Wild West comment, because I’ve always–when I say always, maybe for a couple of years–thought that it would normalize and there would be some rate, some official kind of… Not rate card, but something where everybody knew how much everyone was being paid for brand or content work. Very recently I hired someone at Cartoon Network, and taking it through the process of acquiring or co-producing TV shows, she had a lot of questions about the cost of things and I started to realize that I’ve only been handed down prices from people that told me, I’ve been doing this for a while but obviously there’s been animation being made for television for many years now, but although the cost of an actual show may be normal, may have a fixed price by labor and by materials but actually how much people pay for it varies wildly to the point that I couldn’t actually explain to this new starter. That made me realize that we might be waiting for something to normalize that may never normalize.

 

Maurice: I actually don’t think it’ll ever happen. You know the disparity in rates, I mean you can see it in other careers as well but perhaps not to such a big degree, and that’s I think because it’s still the Wild West. I think some degree of normalization of range will take place. But what’s one post worth on somebody’s channel who has a million eyeballs but they represent your brand 100%, you are aligned versus somebody who has a similar million eyeballs but they’re not really quite what you’re about in terms of what you’re doing. There are going to be companies that will say: “Look, whatever the difference is, I will pay it because we believe in our brand messaging and we believe in our brand identity and we want to work with somebody who represents that to the fullest.” For every one of those there’s going to be another who says: “You know what, I’m going to save a few bucks or a few thousand bucks maybe. I’m okay going with this other person. And maybe they’re doing this job for me and then doing something for a competitor next month. But I’ll get what I want out of it and I’ll gladly take the savings.” So it really depends.

 

Edward: The brand part is where I want to segue into next and talk about one of your other passions that you could have followed, you could have ended up working in a sneaker factory. I wanted to talk about something that I didn’t realize when I first met you I think, oh no maybe I realized a little bit because I was just coming out of my old life of staring at people’s feet and judging them when I meet them but I wasn’t doing that so I didn’t realize how much you were into sneakers until later on when we knew each other a bit better. But you have been a collector for a very long time.

 

Maurice: I have. I’ve been a collector, I’ve been just a general fan of sneakers or shoes. It’s something that started at a young age. It’s really interesting because I think when we met I was in the midst of a 10-year-long retirement and I think we even talked about it once, I made some comment to you like: “You know I might have bought these in my former life.” So anyway, I’m not sure really what happened but I fell back into it a couple of years ago and so now I still read the news, as you know because we are in a…

 

Edward: We’re in a chat group, we’re in a number of chat groups but yeah we are in one about sneakers and in that group a lot of what is reported, a lot of what we find out is dictated through social media. So what I want to put you, having been into sneakers as long as I have, is that there was a time where you didn’t know something was out until it was out, until it was on the shelf.

 

Maurice: Yeah I mean sometimes it was you were like when did that come out?

 

Edward: Or, for me, you probably had the same thing, but you knew someone at a sneaker shop who would show you a catalog and that was maybe the first instance of knowing how far in advance fashion works because something someone would be showing in a catalog was actually not coming for nine months, that’s essentially how much they had to order in advance.

 

Maurice: Well, and in a pre-social media world, nine months was a lifetime.

 

Edward: I know, how crazy is that? So there was one other thing that they did, particularly Nike, they had these quickstrike things which meant that they could come a bit quicker. So that was pretty much how sneakers were bought. You knew it was there when it was there and then it was gone, either on your feet or on somebody else’s feet, and that was the end of it.

 

Maurice: Real life influencers.

 

Edward: And now, delving back into that world, how would you say things have changed?

 

Maurice: The rise of buying online is the single biggest change. I think back and to acquire a pair of shoes that I wanted I used to do things like meet people in parking lots or meet people in alleys in Japan and to this day there are friends that I met and originally it was meeting them in Shibuya in an alleyway saying: “Here’s a North American release, I’m going to trade you for an Asia release.” So the the acquisition cycle, I don’t know what you want to call it, but that was very long.

 

Edward: Yeah and just just a tiny point that you just made is that there were releases that would never make it to you.

Maurice: Absolutely. Geography was huge.

 

Edward: Yeah it was. So I’m going to go into it again but this is the globalization of things has changed. I would say that there used to be this Japanese bookstore near where I lived and I used to buy these Japanese magazines that were sealed–that’s the reason I bought them is because they were sealed, I couldn’t just go there and use it like a library–and they would have stuff like these black and neon Air Max 97s. They’ve been released three or four times since, but when they were in that magazine they were impossible for me to lay my hands on unless I went to Japan.

 

Maurice: Well they were Asia only, the first release.

 

Edward: So I mean you went to Shibuya and you met a guy you did some swap or something?

 

Maurice: Let’s bring it closer to home, I had to travel to London to go to Footpatrol for the Footpatrol Air Stab. I remember that at that time, the folks at Footpatrol didn’t have a great reputation in terms of the staff. I met the nicest people working there and they hooked me up, so yeah things like that. I had the privilege of being able to travel quite easily and so I used that to my advantage and I would pack up three or four pairs of US or Canada release shoes and then just go and be like: “Hey, let’s trade.”.

 

Edward: Where were you meeting them to trade? You’d meet them online?

 

Maurice: At the time it was message boards. So NikeTalk was a big one.

 

Edward: I remember being on that message board at uni actually, NikeTalk and just seeing the new Jordans.

 

Maurice: There was no other way. There was no Twitter, there was no Instagram, there was no way to DM somebody.

 

Edward: That was the exchange part of it, and that has changed, but do you feel like the brands themselves have changed as a result of social media, the way the brands market sneakers to people?

 

Maurice: Oh absolutely. They know how to play the game. They seed sneakers to various blogs, influencers, just like any other industry, perhaps even more so. They understand that now they can release regional exclusives but there’s no real boundaries now with the internet and the boutiques know that as well. So they don’t only market to their home crowds, they market to the world. And I think there’s a bit of a backlash these days because locals are thinking: “I support your store and if you don’t me to by every release from a different story around the world then you should help me out.” And so I think a lot more stores are starting to think about that and have in store only raffles or releases and things like that. But I mean yeah, one thing is boundaries, there are none or very few anymore in terms of trying to acquire sneakers. The other big thing is that back then, if we saw something we really wanted, we couldn’t buy it.

 

Edward: Unless it’s in front of you.

 

Maurice: Unless it’s in front of you or you know somebody.

 

Edward: For me in school it was like: “Oh this person’s going to the US so I’ve seen this thing. Can you get hold of that thing for me?”

 

Maurice: Yeah. Now it’s different because if you have money, you can get whatever pair of shoes you want. I mean there are these sites like StockX and GOAT and things like that and eBay. For me, a lot of it was the thrill of the hunt. It was trying to find that sneaker, sometimes you would set your sights on something and it would take you three to five to nine months to actually track it down, only to find out that they didn’t have it in your size. Now it’s different, you try to buy something, if you have the money you can pay up, if you desperately need something. And then you have it or you don’t have it, you can’t get it and then oh you know what, 10 more sneakers are releasing next week so you just move onto the next thing.

 

Edward: Yeah, the production line is so crazy these days.

 

Maurice: One of the most hilarious things about online discussions about sneakers, whatever platform we’re looking at, is the definition of a grail. It’s hilarious because people get so heated with that discussion because you have us old heads who are like: “Oh holy grail, it’s something I’ve been searching for ever for, I can’t find it in my size. When I see it I’m going to buy it no matter what the price.”.

 

Edward: Yeah and then what are other people saying?

 

Maurice: Yeah well now you have kids who are like: “Oh you know the last Yeezy, I finally got it. It’s my grail.” It’s like okay, who am I to argue with you? Sure it’s your grail but the definition of grail has definitely changed.

 

Edward: Yeah right. It’s kind of like best film ever or best song ever, back in the day it was something that was like 20 years old or something but it could be just a song or a film from last summer. I get that a lot. What is your favorite pair of sneakers that you own? Or–I knew you couldn’t answer that so I already hit the ‘or’–what was the most satisfying pair of sneakers that you bought?

 

Maurice: I think maybe Atmos Air Max 1. You know there was a set? It was an Air Max 1 and an Air Max 95, kind of brown tones and purple?

 

Edward: Oh I see. And was this a social media hunt? Did this take a long time to get hold of?

 

Maurice: Oh no no that’s from back in the day. I met somebody who wanted to trade a pair of shoes.

 

Edward: I had a pair of Air Max 95s that were–for anybody that doesn’t know, Air Max 95s for a few years were the only things that people wore in London, there was just nothing else, it seemed like they were the only sneakers on sale because everybody wore them. So there was a pair that was exclusive to Finish Line in the US that were all 3M, so totally reflective. I know it sounds terrible but they were cool. My sister lives in the US but my sister didn’t have time to go and search for sneakers for me so I had to order them online. It wasn’t that much effort, but I ordered them from Finish Line to be delivered to my sister who then sent them over to the UK and yeah I was just getting stopped in the street like a celebrity by anybody. But it was almost like a vampire, they wouldn’t show up in pictures, any photos that had a flash, it just looked like my feet had exploded. Pure reflection. But I really wish I’d held onto them, they were also one of the most… I guess I’ve paid more for sneakers now but they were the most expensive at the time.

 

Maurice: What was the colorway?

 

Edward: It was all 3M, all silver. There was a touch of dark blue on the back, and they had dark blue laces but I changed them out for silver laces as well because. You know, you know how we do. In terms of expensive probably Wovens, Wovens caused the most stir when they were first released. It was one of the first big marketing things I saw from Nike away from sports stores, was that they gave Wovens to the fashion shops in London. So Post, Browns Focus, Hideout and a few others, they gave them a color each and the shops were in Soho within maybe half a mile of each other. They limited it to two pairs per person but they were £220 I think.

 

Maurice: Back in the day?

 

Edward: Yeah.

 

Maurice: Well that’s like $10,000.

 

Edward: It’s like a ton of money. We’re really dating ourselves. I remember buying two pairs and then there was a there was a stylist in New York who was like–I don’t even know what forum she used–but I found her and she was willing to pay like up to £400 for one of the pairs that I had and that was my first ever like resell moment. I didn’t plan to be a re-seller but I literally bought two pairs because I knew they had value, there were people standing outside Post willing to buy your second pair off you. I’m not going to do that, but when I got home I realized I could actually sell these on. So yeah I don’t know what year that was but that was my first example of this business.

 

Maurice: Obviously you realized that that wouldn’t be a wise career path.

 

Edward: But just bring it back to social media for a moment. So in terms of these companies, I’m going to name check Nike and Adidas and whoever, how does it feel now–bearing in mind you’ve maybe looked up to them, you’ve sought out their products repeatedly–how does it feel now to work with companies like this on a Stay & Wander level? Is it as fun as you expected or is it much more business-like now? Is it like peeking behind the curtain basically of marketing plans and that kind of thing? How does that feel?

 

Maurice: Just for the record, we have not worked with those brands but as a general answer to your question, I think for the most part I’m pleasantly surprised when I work with the creative teams. Especially the bigger companies who are hired for a very specific purpose. So within these companies they have people who are actually dreamers, who really want to create something fantastic, and those are the people that I really enjoy interfacing with. It’s when you layer on the other business units that sometimes…

 

Edward: The people that maybe don’t understand what is being achieved, what you’re trying to achieve?

 

Maurice: Yeah they might take direction from those other departments but they’re there to make sure the bottom line works, that it fits with a certain strategy which may not be a creative fit. I think that’s sometimes where things go off the rails a little bit or a lot of times when the assignment makes its way through a company it gets distorted and by the time it reaches us, something that we always like to say is that we’re most effective and we can be most effective for you being the client, when you bring us in at the ground level. Because the worst is when you come to us with something that’s half or, even worse, nearly fully baked. We basically have to spend so much time undoing everything. Let’s go all the way back to something we were talking about earlier, for a lot of people it’s not their role to necessarily understand what we do because they don’t live and breathe it. They can pretend to but this is something that you can see through really really quickly. So I think the the clients that want to push us in that direction because client is always right. That brings trouble. It doesn’t make for an effective campaign and ultimately we want what’s best for everybody. As ‘influencers’ or brand representatives or doing brand work, the brand’s success says a lot about our own success and so we should be aligned and when we’re not, I think that’s when things fall apart. It really shows through in the final product and it’s unfortunate. We’ve seen people that we love and respect and work with doing terrible things because they were forced to.

 

Edward: Going back to your previous point that sometimes they’re not even hired as the right fit. So sometimes it can go back to that but then you’re right, it can also be the right fit but given the wrong instructions.

 

Maurice: There’s so many different ways that things can go wrong. And I think part of what we do, because we’re an artist run agency, myself, Alex Strohl, Rishad Daroowala, we are all photographers and influencers if you will, meaning that we have audiences that we interact with and there’s mutual respect and so we understand when we work with photographers, no matter what country they’re from, we understand what they need to succeed and to do a good job and what they need to be creatively honest with the work that they’re doing. We also know as consumers ourselves, when we talk to our clients we’re very straightforward in terms of letting them know what will work and won’t work. Because who are you selling to? They’re not ‘the audience’ meaning some third party. We are those people. So something that I always say is we’ve basically found success because we understand and we’re able to convey that in general people don’t hate advertising through social media or coming from people like us, they don’t hate advertising, what they hate is bad advertising. So our mission is to work with people so that they don’t have to put out bad advertising, to create advertising that inspires, that people are receptive to, that people find interesting. So that’s really the bottom line.

 

Edward: After that big pitch, I remember you said at the beginning that you followed your passion, it seems like you deal with a lot of the business side now. Are you still passionate about photography and do you still shoot? I know shooting a posting is different, but I was speaking to someone who said: “Maurice doesn’t post as much as he used to.” So is that just because you’re busy working or not feeling it anymore? What’s the story?

 

Maurice: To be super candid with you, a lot of it has to do with time. So one of the reasons that I actually enjoy coming to Hong Kong every year, and I’ve been here for the last seven years around this time, so all the years that we’ve known each other. I come and I try to carve out time for myself to shoot because this city has so much to offer for photographers. What happens is, and I’ll just use this trip as an example, so I’m here for about two weeks and I thought I would land and get out there, I have some agency meetings and client meetings I need to do, I have some photographers that I want to get to know better as friends but also potentially if we can work together in the future. But really what I want to do is eat, and you know I love to eat and explore food and I want to do some shooting for myself. But you know, look I’ve been here nine days and I’ve gone out to shoot one day, two including today, because when you don’t see me I’m doing things for clients on Western time, Eastern time, European time, the first week that I was here I probably got an average of two and a half hours of sleep per night. That’s great, you have all day Maurice, but when you’re on two and a half hours of sleep you can’t really go out and explore. So I think that that would be my regret but it’s kind of not a regret because I really wanted to build this company up, I want to be of service to our clients, I want to be of service to the photographers that we work with. We need to grow but that’s what drives me, and so I would say that right now it’s at the expense of my own personal photography time, but you’ve got to do what you’ve got to do sometimes and hopefully if we continue to find success then I can move some of those things off my plate and have more time to create. Still doing it, I still really enjoy it. I still love photography as much as I used to but I just don’t have the time. In terms of the influencer work which I also do myself, or have done in the past, same thing for me. I get to be a lot more selective because that’s not my main income if you will. So I did a job a couple of months ago and I realized when I did these posts, I haven’t done a sponsored post for almost two years, coinciding with the the rise of our agency.

 

Edward: No but that’s a good thing. Honestly, busy is good. So my final question to you really is what next for Stay & Wander? It sounds like you need more stuff.

Maurice: We definitely need to grow. We haven’t done any advertising in our four years so we could really stand to get our name out there more. Almost all of the work that we get is word of mouth.

 

Edward: Sounds like you need a campaign.

 

Maurice: Maybe a campaign for ourselves. Well it’s interesting, the Stay & Wonder account recently hit 500,000 followers. It’s great, we have this community of people that like the type of imagery and the brand that we’ve built for ourselves but I think we need to show people more of what we do. It’s not that we’re secretive, it’s more just that we haven’t had time to market, we don’t have PR. Most of the jobs that come our way, thank you, but they’re like: “We’ve seen something that you’ve done or one of your photographers has done. How can we work together?” We have to tell them what we are. So we’re very blessed that way. It’s a good problem to have. I think next level is to continue growing, continue operating and partnering with creatives in more areas in the world, and really just continuing to do great work. That’s the reputation that we have and I’m very thankful for that so we want that to continue.

 

Edward: Well, I’m looking forward to seeing all the great work that you do. Thanks for coming on.

 

Maurice: Thank you. Thanks for having me.